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Team maps Mapmaking Workshop (2v2, 3v3)
Need for new good-quality, competitive maps
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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:26 am  Reply with quote

Good job man !
Will maptest as well when I have some time.

Added your post in OP (under WIP ?) http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303035#303035

Thanks for posting !

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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:34 pm  Reply with quote

Reference list of maps.
As said previously, I wanted to make a reference list, for inspiration for team maps creation.

This can help seeding an initial idea for creating your map, or even copy-pasting an existing map, and altering it to make it better, or to adapt it from 1v1 to team. See what I suggested with Sidestep : http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=82&p=303067#303067

If you have other ideas, make sure to propose !

-------------------------------------------------
- Some interesting maps from map makers. Some of them are team maps, some are 1v1, but seem to be good maps in terms of gameplay.
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/Janitor/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/Seru/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/Doomsday/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/Jopani%20Kansaro/page/1/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/uploader/1343/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/kazu./page/1/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/mo/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/Blackened/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/PizzaAtomica/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/hamb/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/SoScared/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/uploader/403/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/CRLF/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/author/The%20Echo%20of%20Damnation/


- 1v1 maps. Can adapt them, transform them into team.
Agenda
Behind The Veil
Desert Rats
Green Belt
Keep off The Grass
Northwest Passage
Patches
Pitfight
Rocky Ravine
Sidestep
Winter Storm

- TD team maps : could be adapted for RA. Good points, but must be improved.
Original images :
http://imgur.com/YE4EyZW
http://imgur.com/v6iDkZe

http://i.imgur.com/YE4EyZWl.png http://i.imgur.com/v6iDkZel.png

- Maps from other games ? maybe RA2 and TS ... not looked thoroughly thorugh them
http://www.cncsaga.de/1372-offizielle-tiberium-wars-maps.htm
http://www.cncsaga.de/1564-offizielle-alarmstufe-rot-2-maps.htm
http://www.cncsaga.de/1430-offizielle-tiberian-sun-firestorm-maps.htm

From SC2 :
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Maps/Ladder_Maps/Legacy_of_the_Void

- Official map pool : some maps could be reworked !

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Last edited by FRenzy on Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:52 am; edited 4 times in total
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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:57 pm  Reply with quote

Map making tools & tips

I also to make a post about my map making tools I use, and share the tips I came to use while mapmaking (I'm still new at it and learning along the way)

A few points I want to talk about : sketching/planning your map, using the map editor and the utility tool, measuring, publishing

* Using a drawing software

I use Inkscape for most of my drawing process. https://inkscape.org/en/
Inkscape is an open-source program, for vector drawing, equivalent to Adobe Illustrator.
I am personally more used and comfortable wih Inkscape than Illustrator, and find it faster for the easy tasks I need to do in this workflow. However, I'm sure you can do the same with Illustrator.

So this is what my file looks like.
http://imgur.com/HAawqOP

http://i.imgur.com/HAawqOPl.png

There are some good tools to use within the software, such as :
- layers : using layers to organize your document. I use 1 layer per element (map image, lanes, ore, ...)
You can also hide them, lock, change the transparency of a layer, ...
- dimensions : I also use the built-in units system to measure the dimensions of what I am drawing.
When importing an image into Inkscape, a OpenRA cell is about 10 cells. I just adjust the scale so it is perfectly 10px. From there on, anything will be measured with that scale : width of a lane, distances, ...
- grid : you can also superpose a grid over your drawing. Of course, will be a 10px grid, with a primary grid every 10 cells.
I also add another red grid every 50 cells. Therefore, I can quickly now the coordinates of an object by looking at the grid.
- snapping : you can snap to the grid, but also to other objects
- aligning : for symetry purposes
- measure : I just draw a line, and see the length in pixels.
- export : when done, you can export a selection. I usually add another "export" layer, and draw 1% transparent rectangle as a selection.


* Map editor / Utility tool

http://imgur.com/7yF1vVJ

http://i.imgur.com/7yF1vVJl.png

- increase map size, to get more room (beware -2)
I like to see my whole map as a canvas. Increasing the space a lot allows me to get more space, if i suddently need to expand my map a bit, or leave some copy-pastable assets in the additional area.
You can even make yourself a "default" starting map, with already a lot of assets.

https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/wiki/Utility
You need to open a terminal where your Utility.exe is (in your installed folder), then type (or copy paste) :
OpenRA.Utility.exe ra --resize-map MAPFILE WIDTH HEIGHT
For instance :
OpenRA.Utility.exe ra --resize-map ./Jungle-Law_v0-4b.oramap 170 170 (./ if you put the .oramap in the same folder, otherwise you need to write the whole path)

- copy paste to reuse assets, cliffs, roads, ore patches, ...
- use versions
I suggest to save a new version every change, and to keep the old ones in an "old" folder. Also because there is no "Undo" button !!
- eco measuring :
To measure the amount of an ore patch, copy it somewhere else, and calculate the difference.
- quick sketching :
I use water tiles to quick sketch : for instance axes, circles, planned areas (obstacle, ore, ...).
For more precision, I read on the grid (in Inkscape) a few keypoints, that I precisely draw in the editor. Then I draw between those points.
Sometimes I use some highly visible actors (the orange hay stack), to note some areas (finished areas, to-do areas, ...)
- grid color : I also changed the grid color to gray, for eye comfort.
can be overwritten by setting it in your installed OpenRA folder : OpenRA\mods\ra\tilesets\temperat.yaml for instance, then change HeightDebugColors: 555555

* Publishing
I use http://imgur.com/ , then go to my uploaded images, click the one I want to upload : gives you several links.
Choose the one that says BBCode, and you can even choose a thumbnail size.

For screeenshooting, I think native Windows would work, or the OpenRA screenshot command, but I use "Greenshot" software and works well. Then combine images on my image editor.

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eskimo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:16 pm  Reply with quote

Will check your map out Blackened, looks good.

I wish grid could have a larger grid within it. So for every 5 cells there's a different colour line, and every 10 another colour.

As much as i'd like to play other maps from the other games, specifically RA2 won't transfer over very well at all. The openra build radius and repack standard change gameplay so much. Heck Freezes Over was a very tactical map but the way ridges play in openra causes the map to become pretty generic. If RA2 had fog of war Heck would of been an insane map to play. There were so many channels available when playing 1vs1

[edit]

Okay, moan time. This is literally everything i dislike about multiplayer games now. It could of gone either way tbf, but that point is irrelevant if the game is no fun and offer little variation in play. I was the only person to deploy on start out of 6 people. I hope to see some more good maps out of you guys Smile


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Wippie
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:50 pm  Reply with quote

FRenzy wrote (View Post):
@Wippie :

Playtesting your map currently. 2 replays already :
01 https://www.gamereplays.org/openra/replays.php?game=92&show=details&id=322087
02 https://www.gamereplays.org/openra/replays.php?game=92&show=details&id=322088


It looks cool already, gameplay is nice. Enough expansions to get to. 2 routes to fight, some back and forth actions, all nice Smile I think this map has good potential ! Players and me seem to like it.

I would point out a few points of improvements :
- Eco : harvesting paths can be a bit difficult. Sometimes harvesters wander into enemy base, get blocked by 1 unit a the 1 cell entry, etc ...

I feel some mines will be avoided by players, and others privilegied.

Also, I think that back players have a hard time reaching their 2-mines starting patch, compared to central players.

***EDIT : I played the v1 lol Laughing . Actually on v2, back players seem in better position, as central players 1-mine patch is longer to harvest (and more exposed)***

And player "D" is a disadvantage getting his 1-mine starting patch (north), compared to pl."B" (south), he has to be extremely careful with ref placement (see the debris)

- Lanes : 1st game against T and Potato : I had a lot of back and forth between north and south, which is good. But in other circumstances, could result in a stalemate, if those 2 positions (mid north and mid south) are locked. There are no other lanes for flanking, unless you unlock one of those postions (see game 2), then you can flank main bases.


Maybe : add 0,5 / 1 lane to each existing lane (bigger map vertically) ? use the islands, with a new bridge ?
(I don't count central gem / ore passages as lanes, they're too easily lockable with a turret)

- There might be a little "mid-or-die" situation for each lane, on the 2-mines expansions. Maybe change a bit ore distribution, to make them less essential


We're getting somewhere ! Keep the good work Smile


I took a large portion of your advise and enlarged the map vertically, creating a sneaky route to the back player. It also provides options for expansions and the possibility to use naval in sneaky ways.

Check out the new Climax on : http://resource.openra.net/maps/22105/


@ Blackened: looks great, if I find the time I will try to playtest it next week. I like the fact it seems appealing for both new as experienced players, also like the theme!
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Mo
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:48 am  Reply with quote

Loving the work you've done here in collating information and trying to science it.

Would be awesome if a tool (Is there one if I'm not mistaken?) was developed to collect statistics on a particular map to see how it plays out with a large volume of games.
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eskimo
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:01 am  Reply with quote

Nice, will give this a play later. The extra channels should be good. I also noticed the harv issues before but hadn't played enough to warranty any feedback straight off. I've found many of my games on it end up with 1minute base pushes sadly, due to the nature of the close proximity of spawns.
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Wippie
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:46 pm  Reply with quote

Got a good game of Climax:

https://www.gamereplays.org/openra/replays.php?game=92&show=details&id=322215
Also noticed some tile flaws -> fixed.
http://i.imgur.com/4gReE50.jpg


@Blackened I gave Tyrants a try. Nice beginning, very surprising. It did seem to confuse my teammate.

I know its supposed to be played Left vs Right, If its played Top vs Bottom it's a bit unbalanced because of the ore placements. Had some trouble getting balanced games going, so its too early to draw conclusions, but I do like the layout and theming a lot.
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FRenzy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:39 pm  Reply with quote

Mo wrote (View Post):
Loving the work you've done here in collating information and trying to science it.


Thanks man ! Smile

Mo wrote (View Post):

Would be awesome if a tool (Is there one if I'm not mistaken?) was developed to collect statistics on a particular map to see how it plays out with a large volume of games.


What statistics do you need ?

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Blackened
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:10 pm  Reply with quote

@wippie watched that game, was actually very good! I went tile error hunting for you:
http://imgur.com/a/4YnOy

I indexed so its easier to find.
1 the southern expansion for the left side players. the water cut into the cliff and the end of the cliff was clipped off (actually outside the circle)
2 the back side player on the right starting field has the wrong cliff set.
3 is in the SE part of the map just that same grass tile used over, wasn't even sure if it was worth showing Razz
4, 5 ,6 7, and 8 are all in the NE part of the map. Just random artifacts from shifting the tiles.
9 and 10 are to the left of the left sides inside player. Debris piece was cut off and a random cliff piece. There's actually another random cliff piece by the debris with the wall tile (or whatever it actually is)
11 is the bridge in the SW. Bridge is cutting into the shore. You can actually walk directly onto the bridge from there.
12, 13, 14 are also in the SW water. 13 also allows you to walk across the water

Hope this didn't come off as pedantic as it seemed Embarassed

edit: also i just realized and had 1 on there twice Embarassed Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:26 pm  Reply with quote

Replay for Climax.

Lot of sloppy play going on from both sides but 2 experienced + 2 inexperienced players made for an interesting game. I must admit i got carried.

The corner islands are really cool. Never even thought to sneak an MCV round the back, or what 5A did was retreat across the bridge and blow it up.

Couple of snaggy edges on the harvs still, but generally good.

I spotted one of 5A harvester idling down the bottom left, not sure if the cliff was the reason?


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Wippie
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:23 pm  Reply with quote

Blackened wrote (View Post):
@wippie watched that game, was actually very good! I went tile error hunting for you:
http://imgur.com/a/4YnOy

I indexed so its easier to find.
1 the southern expansion for the left side players. the water cut into the cliff and the end of the cliff was clipped off (actually outside the circle)
2 the back side player on the right starting field has the wrong cliff set.
3 is in the SE part of the map just that same grass tile used over, wasn't even sure if it was worth showing Razz
4, 5 ,6 7, and 8 are all in the NE part of the map. Just random artifacts from shifting the tiles.
9 and 10 are to the left of the left sides inside player. Debris piece was cut off and a random cliff piece. There's actually another random cliff piece by the debris with the wall tile (or whatever it actually is)
11 is the bridge in the SW. Bridge is cutting into the shore. You can actually walk directly onto the bridge from there.
12, 13, 14 are also in the SW water. 13 also allows you to walk across the water

Hope this didn't come off as pedantic as it seemed Embarassed

edit: also i just realized and had 1 on there twice Embarassed Laughing


Haha I actually appreciate it a lot. As mentioned before I really am low on spare time these days. Feel free to edit it and send new revision in if you are up for the challenge, it might save us both some time Wink
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Wippie
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:33 pm  Reply with quote

eskimo wrote (View Post):
Replay for Climax.

Lot of sloppy play going on from both sides but 2 experienced + 2 inexperienced players made for an interesting game. I must admit i got carried.

The corner islands are really cool. Never even thought to sneak an MCV round the back, or what 5A did was retreat across the bridge and blow it up.

Couple of snaggy edges on the harvs still, but generally good.

I spotted one of 5A harvester idling down the bottom left, not sure if the cliff was the reason?


Thank you, will check it out later this week.

@Blackened: Fixed all the tile placement issues (I think). Actually found 2 or three more. Please find the updates on http://resource.openra.net/maps/22149/

Placed the oil derricks from the islands to the mainland.
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Wippie
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:46 pm  Reply with quote

eskimo wrote (View Post):
Replay for Climax.

The corner islands are really cool. Never even thought to sneak an MCV round the back, or what 5A did was retreat across the bridge and blow it up.

I spotted one of 5A harvester idling down the bottom left, not sure if the cliff was the reason?


Haha, just checkedd the replay./. 5A only went across after you placed the Tesla. After that, your teammate blew up the bridge.

The parabombs were brilliant. Didnt spot the harvester stops, but cleaned up some edges just to be sure.

Thanks for sharing the nice game! I like the vibe thus far.
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Blackened
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:38 am  Reply with quote

@eskimo those parabombs were the best I've seen in awhile.

@wippie I'll take a look at it later. Smile
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