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This is now your RAGL people.
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Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: This is now your RAGL people. Reply with quote

Hello as you may of read my recent discord outburst some of you must agree, disagree or have no clue what I'm saying because I was angry and rambling so here is a full nicely and polite written post to highlight some of the behind the scenes RAGL activity from our officials are doing. Here is a timeline of the events that unfolded.

1. First off it was decided and I agreed to from Soscared's argument that the line of succession for the vacant master spot by Klaas will not go to me or OMnom instantly for skill level. This already contradicts their own rule book in new players will be ranked in divisions to their skill level accordingly. There is no point on what new is and since we have only done one season we are new. We have a well known skill level that will easily hold our own in masters therefore the spot should go to me or OMnom but in my opinion to OMnom because he is a better player than me and I am an understudy but it’s for debate. But however it was decided that the 4 minions player will be asked and that was that.

2. I received a PM from an official saying that Medium Tank would be promoted to masters for the spot. (I have nothing against Medium Tank at all I think he is a very swell guy and he has no blame for any of this and is a legend in his own right at RA) this would create a very bad scenario. In season 3 Medium Tank was League Forfeited for 3 strikes. A league forfeit in season 3 means they are gone from RAGL and are no longer in the system. This means before season 4 of RAGL, Medium Tank was not apart of RAGL. In season 4 the decision was made by the officials to remove the League Forfeit. Medium Tank was then put into minions. Hang on though, Medium Tank pre season 4 is not apart of RAGL and to join he would need to register as a new player. Putting Medium Tank into minions means that 50 players have been bypassed to put a new RAGL player into minions. Whocares, Mechanic and Wippie have potentially lost out a minions spot because of this which is completely unfair. Then the decision to put Medium Tank into masters. A new player has been put into Minions skipping 50 players. Then into masters skipping the people in line in minions and below. This is complete bullshit if you ask me and the fact that me and OMnom potential move to masters first was overruled to maintain the integrity of the league and to not cause upsets and not to demotivate players for getting placements anyway is now ludicrous. This would also apply to Ouzzyouzo as he was league forfeited and then put into minions but he declined so less uproar I suppose. If this change had gone through then many players wouldve lost out at a chance at competing at a higher level.

3. After telling the official how stupid this idea was I was threatened with what I interpreted a kick from RAGL for speaking out. After this when I was arguing points for why this is dumb such as the above bit I was met with "I don't care", "I don't care with what you say.". This angered me greatly to which I took it public which was the discord rant.

4. Afterwards when they probably realized how stupid that is, the succession would be the 4 minions players would be asked and then after that masters would be capped at 11 players if they did not agree. This is clearly to piss me and OMnom off and especially aimed at me because I caused a bit of mayhem - it's an obvious spite. The line of succession would be Lucass, NMM, T, Kuba, Juicebox, Me however it is now cut off at Kuba. Why? The only answer I got apart from them trying to change the topic and avoid the question was because we are officials and we can do what we want. In fact I saw that a lot. Every reasonable point stated was refuted with "we're officials and what we say is final.". This was tutted a lot by the officials and Murto who was defending them. A poor excuse for an answer to my questions.

I made this thread just so everybody knew what was really happening. The officials are making their own rules and following which ones they see fit for the circumstance and their only reasons are we are the officials and we can do what we want. I made this public so everyone can see what is happening and maybe it would stop them from being ridiculous with the power they have. Right now what is decided by the old rulebook and what is decided by the new. It’s been poorly written, a copy and paste of season 3 rulebook and then rules thrown in and taken out on the spot with no communal feedback. I didn’t even know League Forfeit was removed and I don’t think many else did until now.

As my final thoughts I’ll end on a happier note, I ask that with this league transition and the fact that the new league admins won't know how to handle every situation until they encounter it, that they give the players complete transparency into issues regarding league positions and give the players the chance to give feedback but not to just jump ahead and make decisions. After all this is a community ran game and league, and we want it as seemless and fair as possible.

UPDATE: It has been decided that the 4 minions players will be asked and then if they decline then Masters is capped at 11. This is an obvious spite at me for causing a fuss. I don't think changing the rules to punish a player for speaking out is particularly fair and makes the atmosphere a bit like the DPRK. I asked the officials to provide a reason for this and one day later I have have no answer, they have avoided my questions every time. This is clear evidence this change was not to benefit the league but to punish a player. A league with integrity? I think not.


SECOND UPDATE: Everything is now fine the problem was a clear miscommunication from one of the officials making things that haven't been decided official and not reporting that it' still being discussed as well as just being a general douche. I was under the impression that the official spoke for the both of them but this is not the case. The other official gave complete clarity which I respect and ended the entire situation, I hope that the new rule book will be filled with good rules for the community to go forward and some of the interesting feedback left here should be looked through and considered.


Last edited by Happy on Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:05 pm; edited 9 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:48 pm  Reply with quote

The only thing that bothers me here first is why is all this public ? Why even happy has those info ? That's something wich should be done internally until becoming public all at once with the right justification backing up the decisions.

You have 11 days to release the final tables, i beleive there would be some more changes.

Whatever you choose I trust the staff to justify it proprely according to the structure of the league you are now in charge.

If you change the table in the registration thread, please, make at least an official reply pointing out any change with its justification in order to not confuse/frustrate the players affected by those changes.

And one last point, .1 as you are the author of the registration thread, can you run a check of that topic to correct the beacons and all sort of mistypo. thx
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:55 pm  Reply with quote

WhoCares wrote (View Post):
The only thing that bothers me here first is why is all this public ? Why even happy has those info ? That's something wich should be done internally until becoming public all at once with the right justification backing up the decisions.


I was happy with it not being public untill number 3 on the timeline. The way it was sold was that it was done, dusted and happening and there was nothing that could be changed.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:16 am  Reply with quote

WhoCares wrote (View Post):


And one last point, .1 as you are the author of the registration thread, can you run a check of that topic to correct the beacons and all sort of mistypo. thx


Yes, I will run through it tomorrow, and correct all typos and remove all unconfirmed ppl ect.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: This is now your RAGL people. Reply with quote

Happy wrote (View Post):
-snip-

Nothing like a wall of text in the morning. Im going to avoid reading the context on discord since you decided to post this to the forum to either "inform" others or
I dont really care but MT does deserve it the most. He has been a part of this since the very first RAGL and has been placed top 3 for most of them. The strike system is a load of bollocks, SoScared wouldn't let striked games be played out and all it does is ruin the statistics. Admittedly, MT only played 4 games but if you want to get technical, MT got a higher score than Fahrad, so if that rule was removed (as it is now) MT would still be in Masters.
Getting a league forfeit should, at worst, put you down one ladder.

OR we could do what any other esport competition does and use their terminology to avoid problems. So Recruit would be the "RAGL open league", then "RAGL Main League" and then "RAGL Invite League." So it is understood that these are made primarily for skill brackets. If you watch any competition that doesn't have qualifiers in separate continents, you will see that most of the top teams are invited and don't actually earn their spot so to speak, it's based off of how well they will do against the opponents and MT is a shoe-in for first place.

Also capping it off to 11 is a bit counter-productive. At the very least try to get some games out of it like a round robin tournament. Then no one can complain about being so skilled they deserve to be in there, they will have to prove it.

But at the end of the day, I'm not an official.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:54 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
The officials are making their own rules and following which ones they see fit for the circumstance and their only reasons are we are the officials and we can do what we want.


https://media.giphy.com/media/1rpg1ZDVKcdSo/giphy.gif


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: This is now your RAGL people. Reply with quote

anjew wrote (View Post):
Happy wrote (View Post):
-snip-


At the end of the day, I dont really care but MT does deserve it the most. He has been a part of this since the very first RAGL and has been placed top 3 for most of them. The strike system is a load of bollocks, SoScared wouldn't let striked games be played out and all it does is ruin the statistics. Admittedly, MT only played 4 games but if you want to get technical, MT got a higher score than Fahrad, so if that rule was removed (as it is now) MT would still be in Masters.

Getting a league forfeit should, at worst, put you down one ladder.


OR we could do what any other esport competition does and use their terminology to avoid problems. So Recruit would be the "RAGL open league", then "RAGL Main League" and then "RAGL Invite League." So it is understood that these are made primarily for skill brackets. If you watch any competition that doesn't have qualifiers in separate continents, you will see that most of the top teams are invited and don't actually earn their spot so to speak, it's based off of how well they will do against the opponents and MT is a shoe-in for first place.


I agree with you Medium Tank should be in masters but rules are rules and he did strike out. To put him back in masters that way however is completetly unfair and basically is shitting on everyone below. By this aswell OMnom or Smitty should've taken Fahrrads spot last year being top 5 players both which is why I completely agree with you that Masters should be invite to make sure competition is of the highest order.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:35 am  Reply with quote

Snip from discord, not correlating with Happy points.
Quote:
: 1. Admins are in their right to do what they do. That's what admins do.
2. Putting Medium Tank (and SoS) to Minions is better competition-wise because they are just better players. Punishing players for not playing the season is tough to balance against having mighty imbalanced divisions because we don't have enough competitive community to auto-balance that out
3. Allowing Happy to promote to Masters after 4 Minions players should be a possibility because it's right ladder-wise and because it adheres to league skill separation. But there is a complication of...
4. Happy is an explosive unpredictable dude who can unexpectedly quit during the season due to some minor setback and that is not the behaviour that should be encouraged by the league. I suppose .1/Blackened do Jedi tactics by teaching patience Grin
5. Less of this discussion would have happened if Juicebox didn't quit.


Adding to #2 - League Forfeit rule is good when there are, for example, at least 20 players worthy to be in Masters, and thus not only the best stay in Masters but those who also respect the rules and play most of the games they're obliged to. But currently it looks to be still a bit early for that because a week ago we could even have a Masters division being composed with left-overs from Masters/Minions because half of players there didn't confirm. League Forfeit will just do more harm than good in this situation.
Deducting points for missing deadlines should be done, but those missed games should be allowed to play later.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: This is now your RAGL people. Reply with quote

Happy wrote (View Post):
anjew wrote (View Post):
Happy wrote (View Post):
-snip-


At the end of the day, I dont really care but MT does deserve it the most. He has been a part of this since the very first RAGL and has been placed top 3 for most of them. The strike system is a load of bollocks, SoScared wouldn't let striked games be played out and all it does is ruin the statistics. Admittedly, MT only played 4 games but if you want to get technical, MT got a higher score than Fahrad, so if that rule was removed (as it is now) MT would still be in Masters.

Getting a league forfeit should, at worst, put you down one ladder.


OR we could do what any other esport competition does and use their terminology to avoid problems. So Recruit would be the "RAGL open league", then "RAGL Main League" and then "RAGL Invite League." So it is understood that these are made primarily for skill brackets. If you watch any competition that doesn't have qualifiers in separate continents, you will see that most of the top teams are invited and don't actually earn their spot so to speak, it's based off of how well they will do against the opponents and MT is a shoe-in for first place.


I agree with you Medium Tank should be in masters but rules are rules and he did strike out. To put him back in masters that way however is completetly unfair and basically is shitting on everyone below. By this aswell OMnom or Smitty should've taken Fahrrads spot last year being top 5 players both which is why I completely agree with you that Masters should be invite to make sure competition is of the highest order.


Shit rolls down hill, deal with it son.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:50 am  Reply with quote

If we're talking about rules, we have to start at the beginning. This is not meant to slight SoS in anyway, but a lot of the old RAGL rules make absolutely no sense. A best of 2 series? RA is not a game of soccer, so it makes no sense to structure it as if it were. Away and Home games so players can just play 2-3 maps? It's no wonder why people only played 2 or 3 maps. Force way better players to face far lesser players? Since when do professional teams have to play against high school teams?

The reason for many of these rules, from my understanding, was so that it would make it easier for SoS and Jazz to run the tournament. But for all of its faults, the one thing that SoS has done a remarkable job of was evolving the RAGL to be better every year. Even the previous RAGL with its infamous map-pool, was still a step in the right direction. And again, not to offend anyone, but this RAGL seems like its more about keeping it faithful to SoS's ideas rather than to make them better (coughconspiracycough). What is the point of this useless thread if the RAGL is just going to be the exact same thing as it was from last year + SoS's suggestions only?

Happy has a right to be flustered, because there was a lot of smoke and mirrors when SoS handed the RAGL to "whoever wanted to run it." I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought that the playerbase would finally have a stronger voice when it transferred ownership. I was hoping for some better changes, such as a shorter season, a playoff format, or a smarter restructuring of the "master/minion/recruit" tiers. When I saw that you guys are just recycling the same rules, I was disappointed to say the least. I understood why you guys kept those archaic rules, but I was confused as to why you guys did absolutely nothing to improve it.

I get that all admins "reserve the right to do whatever they want," which is a necessary clause for unforeseen circumstances. That being said, you can't sweep preexisting problems/concerns under the "unforeseen cirumstances" rug and claim "i'm the admin, i do what i want" without expecting some backlash, especially from someone like Happy. I get that running a dictatorship is way easier than running a democracy. And I get that the people in charge hate listening to the constant pestering of players who think they know what they're talking about. But this:

Quote:
Orb - I'm going to be honest, if I understand what is going on correctly I kind of agree with Happy
Promotions should be based on who played last season, and that ranking order

.1 - well, then we need no further discussion.
If orb agrees with you, you know you are wrong.

Orb - I can't even have an opinion now? Ouch

.1 - Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

Orb - Alright, well nevermind then.

.1 - Blackend and I already came to a decsion.
Happy might not like it, but it is what it is.
if he plays out minions, plows through it( like he claims he will) then he will be in masters next season
not up for debate.

Orb - That makes no sense. This a community league that's very small. You can't just alienate people.
Also in my opinion Happy should be almost the last person to promote anyway

.1 - We arent alienating anyone.


...is completely uncalled for. Other people are allowed to speak freely and ignore everyone else because they are powerless. If you're in a position of power, you don't have that luxury. At least do what SoS did and give us the courtesy of a formal, proper response to your actions and reasoning before shutting us down.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:57 am  Reply with quote

On how to decide with rules:
I think the stated rules should be followed as closely as possible, to prevent randomness and so that everyone can see why something has happened. In the event of unforeseen happenings that are not covered by the rules, the admins of the league will have to deliberate on what is the best solution in the spirit of existing rules and the spirit of the goal/mission of RAGL. Obviously decisions should not be made based on how much we like or dislike a player. However, RAGL is undergoing a lot of change at this time and in my opinion this allows admins to redesign rules if they deem it nescessary. Obviously that should be based on deliberation in the adminteam, while taking into account other people's opinions and the goal/mission of RAGL, and communicated with solid arguements. If the arguements are solid, but you still adisagree, then that is too bad. In tough choices not everyone will be happy (no pun intended) with the final say.

On discussing such issues:
We players can give our opinion and arguements before and after decisionmaking, but the final choice is with the admins. We players may fiercely debate anything, but should always word it properly without making it personal. On the other hand a league admin should always keep it's cool and should not get carried into any personal fits. An admin should -imo- always be the person that does an honest effort (not a cynical one) to temper any heatest discussions. In my work I have to deal with verbally agressive people and the formula that works best for me: Ignore verbal agression and rephrase the matter in a non-emotional way. If the other person stays angry and refuses to talk about the issue in a less emotional way, then go meta: "I want to hear you opinion and find a solution, but I can't do that when you're talking like this". If the other person then carries on it is end of discussion. Never mirror the emotion but just stay honestly neutral and 9/10 times you'll have a normal conversation afterwards. But again, we players should word any complaints in a normal way in the first place.

My personal opinion: I think RAGL is about competive RA and this season is a season of change in which admins will have a bit more freedom in deciding who starts where. Who actually want to be in the masters, aside from those who are allready in it? Lucasss, T, NMM, Kuba in my opinion should all be in the minions. That leaves Juicebox, Happy, MT - if Im correct. Do they want to be in the Masters? Juicebox not, Medium Tank I dont know, Happy yes. If Medium Tank wants to be in the masters: let him battle Happy to see who deserves it most.

I also hope there will be a Cadet league, below the recruits. If Im correct people gave their skill level when signing up. Place them accordingly in Recruit or Cadet. This season is the moment to add another layer in the league, I dont see how to promote players from 3/4/5 Recruit division into one Minions League at the end of the season. Then only the nrs 1 will be able to promote, making it impossible for many players to hope for promotion, taking away fun/hope/challenge. Also the newbees probably enjoy actually winning some Cadet games, I think.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:00 am  Reply with quote

OP updated
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:01 am  Reply with quote

Quote:
.1 - Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.


Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:14 am  Reply with quote

OMnom wrote (View Post):
If we're talking about rules, we have to start at the beginning. This is not meant to slight SoS in anyway, but a lot of the old RAGL rules make absolutely no sense. A best of 2 series? RA is not a game of soccer, so it makes no sense to structure it as if it were. Away and Home games so players can just play 2-3 maps? It's no wonder why people only played 2 or 3 maps. Force way better players to face far lesser players? Since when do professional teams have to play against high school teams?

The reason for many of these rules, from my understanding, was so that it would make it easier for SoS and Jazz to run the tournament. But for all of its faults, the one thing that SoS has done a remarkable job of was evolving the RAGL to be better every year. Even the previous RAGL with its infamous map-pool, was still a step in the right direction. And again, not to offend anyone, but this RAGL seems like its more about keeping it faithful to SoS's ideas rather than to make them better (coughconspiracycough). What is the point of this useless thread if the RAGL is just going to be the exact same thing as it was from last year + SoS's suggestions only?

Happy has a right to be flustered, because there was a lot of smoke and mirrors when SoS handed the RAGL to "whoever wanted to run it." I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought that the playerbase would finally have a stronger voice when it transferred ownership. I was hoping for some better changes, such as a shorter season, a playoff format, or a smarter restructuring of the "master/minion/recruit" tiers. When I saw that you guys are just recycling the same rules, I was disappointed to say the least. I understood why you guys kept those archaic rules, but I was confused as to why you guys did absolutely nothing to improve it.

This could all have been a valid discussion if this was raised a month ago when Blackened took the reign of RAGL administration. Seeing as noone made any suggestions, raised questions and laid out any details on changes he wants to RAGL structure - new admins are in their right to do as they wanted. The only objection could be to them not asking the community as they decided to implement changes on their judgement and (likely) advice from SoS.

Omnom, if you were not satisfied with best of 2, home-away, league imbalance - why have you not asked all that before? In a forum thread?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:16 am  Reply with quote

noobmapmaker wrote (View Post):

My personal opinion: I think RAGL is about competive RA and this season is a season of change in which admins will have a bit more freedom in deciding who starts where. Who actually want to be in the masters, aside from those who are allready in it? Lucasss, T, NMM, Kuba in my opinion should all be in the minions. That leaves Juicebox, Happy, MT - if Im correct. Do they want to be in the Masters? Juicebox not, Medium Tank I dont know, Happy yes. If Medium Tank wants to be in the masters: let him battle Happy to see who deserves it most.

I also hope there will be a cadet league, below the recruits. If Im correct people gave their skill level when signing up. Place them accordingly in recruit or cadet. This season is the moment to add another layer in the league, I dont see how to funnel players from Recruit A, B, C and D into minions...


100% agree. Of all the previous changes that were suggested, I thought that they'd at least do this.
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